Catholics, Catholics, & Damned Catholics
I’m mad as hell and I just can’t take it anymore. Forgive me for I know what I do and I’m going to do it anyway. I’m fed up. I normally don’t talk politics or religion here at GamerDad. I don’t want to offend. I want to be fair. Inclusive. PC….
I don’t because I don’t want to offend and want to reach the largest, help the largest, audience possible. I know we have some Evangelicals reading. This is not an anti-Catholic post that’s in any way anti-church or anti the spirit of the Catholic Church. I was baptized Catholic and my children were too. My wife was raised Catholic, I wasn’t. She’s left the Church over the Pedophile scandal that’s unfolding. And I can’t be silent any more. I’m writing, appealing, to all Catholics. I run a website that defends video games from stupid, pernicious, and false accusations of the harm games do to children. I’ve argued with Baptists, Mormons, Methodists and Evangelicals. I respect many who I argued with. I even have an estranged cousin-in-law who is a scholar and an expert in an obscure puss drinking Catholic Saint! Hello Karen! And this paragon of virtue once accused me of harming children by advocating video games. Well, screw that, cousin-in-law, your Faith is a far greater problem than Doom, God of War, or Call of Duty and my video game playing children are more moral, because they don’t materially or spiritually support a sexist, racist and criminal religious cult.
“I fear video games might force children to pay a price. Maybe the ultimate price!” – My cousin-in-law, directly quoted.
Is that so? What is the ultimate price? Does it involve molestation? Abuse? Rape? Do video games DO this? Or do empowered and trained Catholic Priests do it? You know, I’ll be nice, I won’t even mention the high incidence of Priests in Africa raping Nuns and holding them in sexual slavery. And that’s just current events. I won’t mention the child abuse that is/was rampant in Ireland or the systematic murder and genocide of CHRISTIANS the Church is responsible for over the … years? No. Decades? No. Centuries? Yes. I’ll be nice and not mention all of that.
I know what I do, I write about the Catholic church and limit myself to only the revelations of sexual abuse. Something I’m sure is caused by the scourge of homosexuality – yeah, the Vatican said that. Something I’m sure is only a small problem and these attacks, like mine, are an offensive and conspiratorial attack much like Anti-Semitism – yeah the pope’s confessor and religious confidant said that (on Good Friday). Or something that is part of an anti-Catholic conspiracy, yeah the pope said that (on Easter 2010), or maybe it’s just gossip. You know, gossip. Not of the “Did you hear Blanche secretly uses Lard instead of Crisco?” variety but of the apparently similar “Did you hear the Archbishop transferred a horrible child molester to a different Church because the Vatican and chief Inquisitor Ratzinger forgave me?” variety?
JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR – My temple should be a house of prayer! But you have made it a den of thieves. Get out! GET OUT!
I’ve been silent too long. Lets talk about REALLY protecting children.
Catholics! What is wrong with you? You all should be marching in the streets. Your leadership has betrayed ALL of your good works, all of your charity, all that’s good about Catholocism! Can’t you see that? Hold your flawed and sinful leaders accountable! I am outraged at the Church. I’m mystified that Catholics worldwide aren’t protesting in the streets. Where are you? Get off your damn pews and picket outside your Archdiocese. I’m baffled and offended, and you should be too, at the Vatican’s lack of contrition and I hope to read that the Catholic exodus continues and grows devastating. Oh, you are “Staying with the Church and trying to reform it from within!” Really? Are you? How’s that working out? Bernard Law escaped to the Vatican and ten years have passed and your “reforming the church from within” has only victimized more and more CHILDREN! I say again… CHILDREN. We haven’t heard about South America, about Poland, the Phillpines, about John Paul’s complicity, about Mother Theresa’s complicity or about Africa yet. I think this is going to explode anew for the next 50 years. Your reforms won’t work. Tear down the Church, it has betrayed Jesus Christ himself. And I say this as an Atheist who thinks Christ had some pretty good ideas. But the Church needs to fail for the sake of Jesus. If only to preserve his reputation. If only to preserve YOUR claim of being a good Catholic, quit this foul institution and found a new Papacy, a new Catholic church. One that practices what it preaches. Do it now, or remain a hypocrite.
I’m mad as hell.
200 deaf children were molested by a serial rapist IN THE BUILDING WHERE MY DAUGHTER GOES TO SCHOOL! Cardinal Ratzinger forgave this monster.
There are even worse stories. Unplug your ears, you’ll hear your Saints, your Cherubs, your Angels CRYING about this. Hear them.
And them, when you’re done rightfully persecuting the Catholic Church for protecting monsters and transferring them to different parishes where they could molest MORE children, save some of your rage for the civilian authorities who did nothing.
It’s not you, I swear, what’s offensive is not the Catholic flock, but how can you condone a Church that places it’s priorities on protecting itself and NOT protecting children. Instead it intimidates them, forces them to sign agreements not to tell, threatens them with fucking excommunication if they tattle tale on what Father McFeely did to them night after night!
I don’t hate Catholics. But I also don’t understand them. They forgive the pope himself for obstructing justice, for protecting monsters, for putting more and more and more children at risk. It’s been proven, the Vatican uses your donations, the money you put on the plate, to buy the silence of victims! Your money. YOUR MONEY! Where is the good there? I can’t find it and I’m not even religious. Why am I more outraged, more moral, less hypocritical THAN YOU ARE.
This is indefensible. Punish them. Repudiate them. Do it for Jesus and your Saints. Do it for the people who suffered and died to provide examples and statues for your churches or face ridicule and hatred from the population – forever. Save your FAITH now. It might be too late but I assure you – despite my Atheism I’ve read scripture – I assure you that God is going to punish these people. No forgiveness. So why do you forgive?
Why?
Think about it Catholics.
Why?
Why.
I want to help people of all faiths navigate and understand video games. I’ve devoted 7 years of my career to this task and received very little in return. I’ve gotten thank yous from every major religion. Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Methodists, Evangelicals, Atheists, Agnostics, Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, Hindus, Buddhists and Catholics. I’ve helped them all. Now I really want to help them.
Help them save themselves from real, actual, preventable, actionable, protestable SIN.
Please spread the word. Link this in your FaceBook, twitter, MySpace, etc., I’m a good person, this appalls me. It should appall you too.
And for those who argue the Church is fallible and since the rate of pedophiles in the Catholic Church apparently matches the amount of regular people who are pedophiles? Who cares? Really, is that a defense? The difference, duh, is that most American pedophiles are arrested or at least KICKED OUT of their organizations. They aren’t moved to find new victims. They aren’t kept secret so more and more innocent parents entrust them with monsters. They aren’t forgiven. They aren’t protected by a worldwide organization with tremendous power. They aren’t aided by the threat of excommunication (from God), they aren’t enabled by the trust the innocent parents and children place in them, they aren’t forgiven for their “sins” – crimes – they aren’t. They aren’t. They aren’t.
So, I urge you, fight your leadership. Leave or actively cut our the rotting head of your Church. SAVE FUTURE CHILDREN. And do it now. Now. Or your Church will continue to spiral into sin. Become more irrelevant than ever and, correctly, be considered the evil that it has become.
Doing nothing, Catholics, doing nothing only enables the crimes to continue. Is that REALLY your definition of Christianity? I mean, SOME of these crimes against humanity, against children, happened in your fucking confessional! In your confessional. Since I know Cath0lics and I understand what this means, I’ll say it once more. IN YOUR CONFESSIONAL? Can you imagine a place where an innocent, faithful, honest and pure child should feel the most safe? Seriously. Can you? Why doesn’t this piss you off to a superhuman degree?
I, very charitably, hope it doesn’t, Seriously, I hope not. I am an atheist but I am not anti god, anti church, or anti faithful. But I am anti-evil, anti molestation, anti obstruction of justice and anti hypocrisy. Save your souls and condemn your priest, your bishop, your archbishop, your Cardinal until they see the light on the road to Damascus and understand the EVIL they are part of and that they defend. Grab the picket signs. Don’t go to Church this Sunday… protest the Church this Sunday for the sake of your immortal soul. Your God and your Jesus are watching and believe me, they aren’t on the side of the fucking pope or his fucking Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops and Priests. They are judging you. What side are you on? God’s and Jesus’s? Or the Vaticans? Stop being a coward and start being righteous. Make your choice! For the sake of the children.
Please. Do it. Please. I am an atheist but I admire the words, spirit and soul of Jesus Christ. It’s clear. From the Bible itself. That supporting a sinful Church leadership cannot and will not put you in God’s favor when Saint Peter makes his judgement. Or when regular American and other Earthly humans make theirs. Be the example. Lead the church. Stay religious but say “Fuck you!” to these sinners. For that’s what they are. It isn’t Father Mark that you’re listening to, it’s Father Hypocrite. Unless he’s protesting too.
Do it because its what Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, Ganesh, Brigham Young and Moses would do. Do it because it’s what YOU should do. Do it for the children. Be mad as HELL and admit to yourself, you’re not going to take it anymore.
April 13th, 2010 at 7:16 am
I can not understand the complacency, the lies and the justification for the rape of children. It doesn’t seem like the behavior that Jesus would want to condone. Let it end now…
April 13th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Wow, I have been reading GamerDad for a little while and have not seen this much passion in a post yet.
I understand completely where you are coming from and it’s not just the catholic church that’s the problem. It’s the bastardization of religion in whole. While the catholics have more money, more power and more people than most organized religion on earth, that gives them to power to commit and cover up the most heinous crimes. Just don’t think for a second that your pastor at your local babtist or methodist churches aren’t just as corrupt, they just don’t have the means. They don’t have a holier than thou leader to get them out of trouble. So instead they just corrupt youth and steal money from the church. Also look at Muslim’s and how twisted their religion has gotten. Terrorism, rape, genocide, these are all things that can become complacent proved you tell people God told you to or that you can be forgiven.
I am not an athiest, I like to say I am athiestic. Or to quote Penn Jillete, “I am beyond athiest.” The idea of proving a negative is too easy. Like saying, “There is an elephant in my trunk, take a look. Not there? Look again he might of been hiding.” I grew up in a suburban babtist church and by being raised there I did learn a great deal of morals, ethics and following laws. Unfortunately my parents can’t understand a world with morals and ethics in which religion doesn’t exist so they continued to worship after I had already gained what I needed from the church and left. Now with a child on the way I feel I no longer need the medium of the church to teach those to my son. I don;t need to use imaginary men with cool creepy stories from the bible to teach my kid morals. I refuse to scare him into being a good person. I can use Star Wars to prove these same point.
When you think of all of this and look at the Catholic church and what they are doing, what is the point of religion (Christianity in particular)? All of the things the church did for me are slowly disappearing. We have Mega Churches, Catholic pedophile priests, terrorism, indoctrination. What is it again exactly religion is doing for this world? The short answer is honestly, nothing good. It’s become a very selfish, introverted thing, people aren’t following the word of Christ so they can become more like Christ, they are following the word of Christ to guarantee their own personal spot in heaven. It’s that the church only focuses on afterlife. No matter what religion you use (and they are all pretty much the same) the main focus is what happens when you die. They talk about streets of gold and feeling closer to God than ever before. But they don’t seem to focus on now, tomorrow, 10,000 tomorrows. Just what happens after you die.
I have also read scripture and know what the literature contains, but it doesn’t seem like much of the church does. I know there is more in the bible about loving your fellow man and making life on earth great but do we ever really hear those passages in church? All we hear is about the afterlife and how if you don’t accept this person of that person you don’t get to go. Or even worse you won’t hear passages at all. You might get up on a Sunday get ready for church, ready to fill your children full of morals and ethics, then arrive only to hear a Pastor push his agenda for a new politician, or to be against a book, movie, or game that has released that might challenge what he says. Cause God knows we can’t have free thinkers.
I digress. This is something I could talk on for hours, possibly even write a book. But I won’t use GamerDad to do it. In short I totally agree with you and the juxtaposition between games hurting children and the church hurting children is a brilliant point. Keep doing what you are doing and stay passionate about who you are and who you want your children to be.
April 13th, 2010 at 9:03 am
Im a catholic (not by birth), and an avid gamer as well as my son. I have always appreciated your reviews . I am disappointed that you let someone get to you so much that you felt you had to express yourself in the way you did. I can almost assure you you will not feel any better by the time this is all done, and regret this post.
I love your column because the most important thing to me, with any hobby is being aware of what your kids are doing and how they relate to them. It could be games, it could be overeating, I mean just about anything can become obsessive. The best part about your website is making that connection between parents and children.
I hope that you don’t let a few people ruin your outlook the world. Otherwise, you are acting just like Karen.
Thanks for all you do, and I hope you get your feelings resolved, and I look forward to more posts, not necessarily this one but hey we all get angry once in a while.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:32 am
Charles, I very much appreciate your restrained and thoughtful response and that you’re not one of those “leave in a huff” types. Perhaps I was too harsh in my wording. But I’m dismayed because this “scandal” is many, many years old and is only going to continue getting worse. And the scandal isn’t pedophilia, it’s obstruction of justice and the enabling of continued pedophilia. Maybe they’ve got the problem solved here. Maybe in Ireland too. But we haven’t heard from the rest of the world and MY GOD, what else has been condoned by the Vatican? (one thing is a scandal that Nuns are being raped and used as sexual slaves by Priests in Africa). The Church has defroked them, but excommunication? Nah. Turning them in to law enforcement? Nah. Protecting them? Maybe. Forgiving them? Definitely. That makes a mockery of the whole forgivness and contrition part of the Church.
I’m not Anti-Catholic PERSON. Let me make that clear. But I do feel that ignoring and materially supporting sin is sinful. These Priests violated their flock and then the sheep dogs protected them while blaming the sheep for telling. These are facts. Not hyperbole.
My anger comes from living in an extremely Catholic city – Milwaukee – and seeing only one iinstance of a Catholic protesting this. My point is that condoning or ignoring this makes Catholics, good Catholics, ccomplicit in the crimes. I grant that my words were harsh, they flowed out of me lava. But I don’t think I’ll ever regret saying it.
Lastly, Karen blamed video games, gamers and deleopers with a single brush for making games that hurt peopl – despite a laack of evidence of any wrongdoing. I’m complaining about the lack of outrage, visible outrage from good people.
Believe it or not believing in the papacy and the perfection of the hierachy is required to be a Catholic. I understand “cafeteria Catholocism” but that doesn’t excuse anything. Every dollar you spend in church, in part, goes to the Vatican and is being used to pay off the victims.
This, to my mind, makes you look bad. Not being as passionate and outraged as me makes you look bad. I’m urging protest. Because good people like you don’t deserve this crime from your leadership. From your Godly emissaries. To put it another way, if your political party did this, you could remain with that party. But shouldn’t you want all the bums prosecuted or at least investigated? In the Catholic Church it’s the Vatican that’s the criminal and it’s the Vatican that’s investigating.
April 13th, 2010 at 11:44 am
I’m not a Catholic. I consider myself a Non-Denominational Christian, but I’m going to remember where the “cross” in my user name comes from and I must protest. I know what you mean to say here, and I certainly don’t believe in or support the fact that the Pope is covering up all of the pedophilia going on in the church, but, let’s be honest, there’s pedophilia going on everywhere, it just gets more press in the Catholic church. Just like in every other organization, there are bad people in the Catholic Church. I also think it’s absolutely, not only ridiculous, but insulting for you to refer to Catholicism as “a sexist, racist and criminal religious cult.” I understand you anger and I certainly hate all of the taking advantage of innocent children happening in the confessional, but hate speech shouldn’t make you feel any better, and that’s what the aforementioned line is, hate speech. Now, having vented, the fact that anyone should have the gall to even imply that video games are more of a threat to children than child molesters is dead wrong, and people who say that are, either not thinking, or not smart. I still very much support your mission here, and will continue to be an avid reader, but, in my own humble opinion, you went overboard here, and you shouldn’t attack the many for the mistakes of the few.
April 13th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Again cross-breed, it’s not the pedophilia (well, it is only in that it’s worse – this isn’t some creep in an alley, it’s a man of Godly authority and supposedly unimpeachable moral character who has had these children delivered to him by their parents and then in some cases, the parents are paid to be silent or the children have been browbeaten to believe they are responsible for the sin themselves – oh, and hypocrisy fits in there too.) But you’re right that any pedophilia is abhorant and wrong and that it mostly happens in families.
But for the most part a teacher, random stranger or Uncle Charlie don’t get protected by a vast and wealthy group of men somewhere far away. And after they’re caught, they usually aren’t sent to a place where they get to do it some more.
I’m equally mad at the authorities who didn’t prosecute this. That parents took the payoffs. etc.,
But its the cover up that’s the real sin. And as far as my insulting “cult” reference – I’m sorry. I could have been gentler. But, come on, the Vatican isn’t sexist? The Vatican isn’t racist or has no history of racism? And the Vatican doesn’t act cultish? Do you really think I’m wrong there? What also makes this unique and different from “child molestors” in general, is that in this case the pope is demonstrably involved in the cover-up and millions of Catholics actually believe he is infallible. And that these molestors and their enablers cannot be brought to justice because of the Vatican’s unique status and power. Millions support this organization blindly, even if the US church and people like you are more enlightened. And in fairness to Karen, she was arguing the video game angle independently. I don’t know what she makes of the Church’s actions today.
The fish is rotting Cross_Breed, from the head and this situation IS unique. Both in the level of hypocrisy – these people ARE SUPPOSED to be MORE moral than the rest of us, in psychological power – these people are supposed to be 100% trustworthy. And in terms of actual power – millions of Catholics will do whatever their Priest says to do. That’s why they’ve been given the power to absolve and perform sacraments.
It’s not hate speech. I don’t hate Catholics, I challenge them to actually hold their Church and leaders accountable in a meaningful way. So far and over a decade into this scandal the main sound everyone is hearing is crickets and absurd claims of persecution from the criminals.
I’m belaboring again, I know. I guess my main point here is that had the Cardinals actually turned over these molesters and their enablers to justice – then most of this “anti-Catholic” uprising you find so offensive wouldn’t be happening. Case in point, the Boy Scouts just uncovered a similar problem, but they turned their criminals into the law and most are on trial or jailed. The Boy Scouts, therefore, aren’t facing a similar outrage.
April 13th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Like I didn’t say enough there. 😉
But let me add that no other kind of child molester can threaten the very soul of his victim. Can threaten excommunication from God to protect themselves. That level of mental abuse and criminality makes this more than mere child molestation.
April 13th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuPfymsbNkE
That link is to the first part of a brilliant debate about the Catholic Church. It’s worth a watch for anyone with 50 minutes to spare.
April 13th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
@ Some Guy
Bought that DVD for my wife’s birthday. His book, God is not Great, is pretty good too.
@ Nixor
Nice post, very good thinking, as an atheist I agree with everything you wrote. But that’s all I’ll say here. My intent wasn’t to bash the faithful, only to bash the complacency, the hypocrisy, of moral Catholics. The problem is that the Catholic church absolutely encourages blind faith in leaders – which makes this worse. I mean, the Mass was celebrated in Latin for centuries. It only went “English” in the 60’s. Why Latin? Because they wanted parishoners to NOT understand it. They wanted them to be in awe of the magic. So, I’m saying Catholics, if you want to stay Catholic, fine, but clearly your Vatican and pope are not Christ’s representatives on Earth. Open your eyes and see that.
Oh, I’ll add another thing (I need to stay away for a while). If you’re a “cafeteria Catholic” and you use birth control, for example, don’t you think the Vatican is directly responsible for millions of starving babies, suffering families and AIDs victims in the 3rd world? They directly attack organizations trying to curb overpopulation and AIDs whenever they can.
You can’t call that “Pro-Life.”
April 13th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Oh its not that I’m not passionate. I just haven’t been exposed to the level of prejudice against gaming you have. My catholic community is one of the most loving and community. And my sons play all sorts of games (Board and Video) with his non catholic and catholic friends on his fun night. And I highly encourage it. No fights, no arguing, and they pray and have bible study as part of the experience (Sounds Odd I know but its a great way for them to have a reason to come together)
The only regret I thought you would have was possibly offending people who don’t fit the mold of what you stated above. I didn’t mean that you would regret feeling the way you do. Just stating it the way you did.
Thanks for your response 🙂
April 13th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Awesome Charles, you do have a point there. My problem was bottling this up for years and letting it explode. I probably turned off as many as I called to action – and that’s not like me. I’ve never been molested myself – as some emailers have assumed – and I have never had any relationship with Priests – I only have my parents experience and my wife’s to go on. But I’m an idealist and I burn for justice.
I love that you game and then do a prayer group! If I ever decide to write a book about gaming, I would look for stories like that.
April 13th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
I think the thing that everyone forgets when they say “My catholic community is one of the most loving” is that you can’t be sure of that. It’s entirely possible that the priest in your parish may have already been discovered to have a bad past and moved to your parish to hide that. He might not, He’s probably is totally innocent and exactly the person you believe him to be. But thanks to the actions of the Vatican you can’t trust that.
I have to give you unqualified props for that post GD, it was harsh but you’ve got a companion in me when it comes to outrage at denial.
Facts are that most child predators are known by the child and family. it may not be a priest, it’s just as likely to be grandpa, a coach teacher or even the dad. It can be anyone. And for precisely that reason the rest of us need to remain alert to this danger, not just for our kids but for all kids.
The Vatican has let everyone down on that and until they do no less than defrock and report all previously identified offenders to the authorities and do the same for any newly discovered monsters they will get nothing but contempt from me.
I understand why Catholics are easily offended by this topic but I the fact that the offense is directed at you and not the people actually guilty of this horror speaks to why it will stay with us for a while to come.
April 13th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Catholicism is so wrong on so many levels. What Book are Catholics reading? Certainly not the Bible. But on the other hand, why do people continue to put the blame on Catholics and how they act when ‘religion’ is talked about? All people are sinners and will continue to sin even after they are saved, just hopefully a lot less. Those priests will have to answer to God someday, but that’s out of my hands. What’s really bothering me is how ignorant a lot of people are.
God/Jesus does not tell/teach people to behave badly so what does HE have anything to do with it? If you don’t get your ass in a bible-believing, Christ-following church because you don’t like how other people are acting, the blame falls on you. It’s your decision. Accept the gift of Jesus Christ as your saviour, or reject Him.
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/why-it-necessary-write-about-roman-catholicism
http://www.carm.org/is-peter-the-rock
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/gospel-roman-catholics
http://www.carm.org/apologetics/apologetics-dialogues/atheist-says-he-knows-there-no-god
http://www.carm.org/apologetics/apologetics-dialogues/denial-inerrancy-original-manuscripts-bible-0
http://www.carm.org/apologetics/apologetics-dialogues/atheist-says-there-no-evidence-god
http://www.carm.org/atheism
April 13th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
In the New Testament, the church is the “bride of Christ” . If there is a church out there that only talks about themselves and how loving they are and how good they are without mentioning that it’s all because of who Jesus is and what Jesus has done for them and what he’s STILL doing for them, then I guess it’s not much of a representation of what a biblical church is.
Who cares about religion?? Religion is just a man-made word that’s not inspired by God. All it does is gather up all this stuff/crap and lump it into one. What you guys should be caring about is what or who fills that God-shaped hole in your heart. Is it Jesus?
April 13th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
If you keep your eyes on Him and put yourself last, then you may be a very strong light in this world. God first, others second, then you…last. It’s not about you, it’s all about Him. Help others. Forgive others. Love others. But most importantly, it starts with asking for your own forgiveness from the one Son of God.
April 13th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
@Brian
Very well put. I agree with you one hundred per cent. That’s why I refuse to associate myself with any denomination. I think religion (Christianity in particular and Catholicism to be even more specific) has become so much about oneself and about ritual that people have forgotten all about Christ and all about God. It’s sad really.
@GamerDad
Another interesting thing. One thing that I used to do at my church (unfortunately not anymore) is we used to all X-Box 360’s and system link up, then we’d just play some Halo 3. It was fun.
April 13th, 2010 at 8:19 pm
I’m an atheist but I find the story and teachings of Christ very compelling and I actively strive to live like he recommended without believing in the magic. That is possible, I really haven’t met the mythical “evil scheming Atheist.” Most are very kind and generous and curious but skeptical. I really don’t think any loving God could have a problem with that – so if there is a heaven I think Atheists will just go: “Oh! Well, I guess I was wrong. Glad I was a good person anyway!” and then the kumbayah singing would begin. And if there’s nothing, there’s nothing, it’s hard to fear that really.
However, since I don’t actively believe there’s a heaven or hell, I don’t believe that the sinners, the monsters, get judged or punished. That’s why I favor punishing them here on Earth.
You know, just in case.
But every child or Nun or human that is harmed as a result of these Cardinals or the pope’s actions is laid at their feet. That’s why Dante put several popes in his version of Hell.
April 13th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
@Gamerdad
If you are wrong about heaven and hell, and hell exists, you won’t be doing kumbaya singing… It’ll be more like screams of anguish and unrelenting pain–eternally.
If I’m wrong, I would have just wasted my time on earth. Not so bad, because it’s been great so far.
My time on earth is so small compared to eternity with the Lord after I’m gone.
April 13th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
Oh, yeah. I think that these people who are raping children, and anyone who is allowing it to happen solely for the purpose of saying face is on an express train straight to Hell. If there’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s a Christian who says “I can do anything I want because I’m forgiven!” I’d rather be friends with a straight shooting, kindly atheist than a hypocritical, carnal Christian any day. Although, I’m not sure I subscribe to your theories of calling God a form of magic. I think of God as an extra-dimensional being that is capable of doing things that violate our current laws of physics, biology, and chemistry (such as the ability to create matter). I think that God is a scientifically, physically existent entity that just happens to be impossible to prove, because we’ve not yet developed the ability to cross dimensions. Yeah, it’s a little bit out there, but that’s just my theology.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
“I’m not sure I subscribe to your theories of calling God a form of magic. I think of God as an extra-dimensional being that is capable of doing things that violate our current laws of physics, biology, and chemistry”
In over words:
“I’m not sure I subscribe to your theories of calling God a form of magic. I think of God as a form of magic”
How can something break the fundamental laws of nature and NOT be magical by definition (unless it were to break the fundamental laws of logic simultaneously)?
April 13th, 2010 at 10:19 pm
Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed that someone posted Pascal’s Wager.
“If you are wrong about heaven and hell, and hell exists, you won’t be doing kumbaya singing… It’ll be more like screams of anguish and unrelenting pain–eternally.
If I’m wrong, I would have just wasted my time on earth. Not so bad, because it’s been great so far”
1. You’ve presented a false dichotomy between the Christian conception of Hell and God not existing.
2. Belief isn’t entirely a matter of choice, so you’re presentation of the issue is oversimplistic. How would the Christian God respond to insincere belief for the soul purpose of trying to get into heaven.
3. If your lifestyle, moral code, finance, political views ect are at all effected by religion, that religion being false would render any time you’ve devoted to your religion as completely wasted, any money you’ve devoted to religious causes wasted money and any opportunities lost due to religion to be opportunities missed for no good reason.
April 14th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Pascals wager is significant only in that it’s the earliest recorded example of game theory. As an argument for belief it can only provide a hollow empty belief not a robust faith.
With pascals wager you accept God because there is a greater chance of reward but what if you choose the wrong God?
That’s why I use Primevil’s wager. I’m not going to follow a belief in a supernatural entity but live my life in a manner that if I’m wrong and the deity exists, they would approve of the life I’ve lead. Basically what GD suggested.
April 14th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Really, so you must be magical to violate the laws of physics. Not so long ago people believe the Earth was flat. New scientific principles are being discovered every day, and perhaps, one day, we’ll discover a force that can render all of our current discovery inert and useless. Maybe I’m wrong, but don’t rule anything out. Also, if you’re an atheist, an agnostic, or whatever, that’s your prerogative, and I respect that, but kindly don’t brow beat me with your atheism, or agnosticism, or whatever -ism you subscribe to. I’m not trying to force my religion on anyone, so kindly do not try to force your religion (or lack thereof) on me. I wasn’t trying to be hostile and I’m sorry if I offended you with my last post. But, hey, whatever is cool for you is great. If you want to be an atheist, an agnostic, or a Wiccan, more power to you. But, to quote Joshua, “As for me, and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
April 14th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
“I’m not sure I subscribe to your theories of calling God a form of magic. I think of God as an extra-dimensional being that is capable of doing things that violate our CURRENT laws of physics, biology, and chemistry”
He did say “current.”
Although it seems to me that the implication there would be that if we one day were able to fully understand the universe, we as humans would be able to achieve God-like powers ourselves, something that seems to contradict the nature of God.
I personally agree with GD about God as a form of magic. But I consider myself an agnostic, and I like to keep open to any possibility. And I think his post was a little harsh, but I wholeheartedly support his message.
April 15th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
This whole article makes me think of what Paul the apostle said in Galatians chapter 5 about dealing with a brother in the faith that’s committing flagrant sin within the body of Christ. It seems that people are confusing forgiveness with tolerance, and while Christians are to pray for those people, there’s a time when serious discipline needs to be enacted for the sake of the entire Church. Problem is that people in authority are in a position of power that would need a serious judgment of God to remove them from if they don’t have the fortitude to remove themselves, putting the flock of the faithful in Christ over their own needs.
April 19th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Magic, yeah, magic means magic. But I know a lot of religious people think magic equals black magic. I just mean anything not explainable by science and yeah, by “current” I agree that if we do figure out how to do magical things like teleport or read minds it’s because we will have figured out something scientific we don’t know yet.
The main thrust here is that if you’re going to be or believe in a moral institution, then you MUST condemn it when it fails spectacularly or your moral institution means NOTHING. I also know a lot of people consider themselves “cultural” Catholics, meaning they reject certain parts of the Church. But, seriously, you can’t be Catholic if you don’t believe in the hierarchy, the sacraments, the whole shebang. If you don’t, the the concept of sins great and small mean nothing – or at least mean what YOU want them to mean. And if that’s the case… why are you filling the collection plate again? Complacency? Tradition? Because your parents did it?
Doesn’t something as crucial as religion demand something more than that?